I have to admit I can't believe HMRC are seriously considering forcing self-employed construction workers onto PAYE in the current climate.

For companies like ourselves, who are heavily reliant on subbies, it will mean considerable extra costs at a time when margins are hardly huge!

 Looking at it from the other side of the fence I'm sort of happy and angry at the same time!

I remember years ago working for PC Harrington on Euston road where everybody on site was told if we want to work for Harringtons the following week we would have to go CIS!

None of us wanted to but that was our option!

Pretty much every firm in London did the same to a point where you couldn't find work cards in.

The government got its new business statistic! (all these new businesses since Labour took power)

Contractors got their disposable workforce! (most of which never had their own liability insurance)

And the subbies (as you call us) got fked from all directions!

Even the Agencies got to chew on our arses!

Umbrella companies were invented because of us!

There might be a few genuine subbies out there but i would bet most of them are just blokes trying to earn a living that are being abused!

Just the other day i saw a contractor looking for a subbie labourer wanting to pay him minimum wage on CIS.

Because of companies like yours i have to pay at least two different companies and an accountant before i get a glimpse of my wages!

AND YOUR UPSET BECAUSE YOUR FIDDLE IS OVER?????

I'll get you a tissue!

 Actually umbrella companies were invented because composite companies which  routinely gave workers 95% take home pay were outlawed in 2007.

 An agency finds you work and an umbrella company allows you to claim travel and other expenses that you would not be allowed to do as an employee.

 You don't have to pay out for advertising or for tendering for work, you don't have to pay acountant's fees...so tell me why the need for tissues?

 I loathe hypocrisy

 Carolyn,

I'm a machine driver.

When i was cards in i got near enough the same amount of money, Plus a company van & fuel card, guaranteed work all year round with paid holidays, I never had to advertise or tender or pay for an accountant.

 I loathe people who try to patronise without knowing the facts.

Beleive me I know the facts, I have contributed to every HMRC consultation over the last six years and have worked in this industry for nearly twenty years.

What is not in dispute that many people can be better off in direct employment, but times have changed and everyone makes their own decisions.

I am not patronising you, I know exactly how you are employed and paid. You feel that you are basically an employee, but you now source work through an agency. So why sign up with an umbrella company?

You may have had a nice job once, but no one is guaranteed a job for life - in any industry. So today go ahead and stick to your guns but then why not choose to be employed direct by the agency? Because your hourly rate would be lower, and you wouldn't be able to reclaim tax on expenses?

My point is that it's a bit unfair of you to blaim House Martin, his company and those that use subcontract labour, because you have actually found a way to ensure that your net pay is as good as it can be these days.

And another thing, more workers than you may think are legally entitled to work on a self-employed basis, so may be it is you who should get your facts straight before making emotive statements - no matter how much you may feel personally agrieved by your own situation.

Fair comment I think Supa?

I have communicated with CW in the past and the Lady does know her stuff.

Listen and learn my-man, particlarly the comment regarding "Job For Life"

Hey-ho, "The times they are a changing"

where to go next?

 Its not about a job for life though.

Its about having the same entitlement and protection as any other worker in other occupations.

You cannot argue anything while working with agencies because they don't need a reason to terminate your employment.

Whether the law is written in stone  or not you don't have a leg to stand on and most still will not employ you unless you are CIS registered.

You say times are changing and you would be right.

The skilled men and women in this industry with the slightest wish for job security are leaving because we treat our pets better!

And no i don't know the statistic but i bet at this moment in time there is a dam site more workers would prefer to be PAYE than CIS.

I agree with you, there is little job security, but if a contract comes to an end or a full stop for some reason, other jobs don't just magically materialise. Good agencies and contractors will try their hardest to provide continuity. But I accept that others don't and that's where the bad feeling starts.

Anyway, don't think that this new legislation, even if it comes in, which I doubt, is going to change anything.

I can send you a copy of HM Treasury's consultation document on false self-employment if you would like to see it. There in glowing colour is the declaration that all labour only subbies will be deemed under PAYE, but full employment rights will not be given. So it's head you lose, tails you lose.

In the construction industry only, everyone except those in business will be paid under PAYE if this goes through.

Make no mistake, rates will go down as contractors and agencies will have to find the extra employer's NI from somewhere. There will still be no job security and no extra protection.

So, do you still think this new legislation will be good for the construction industry and its workers?

 At the moment probably not but its a step in the right direction!

Look how the car industry protected its skilled workforce over this recession and compare it to how the construction industry is heading!

You cannot tell me there is no money in this game!

What we do have is greedy fat boys sitting on the top rung wanting more profit and the way they are getting it is by starving the industry to death of its skills and it tries to replace them with the CSCS MacDonalds training scheme that a newborn monkey could pass.

The HM treasury must be pissed too because its costing them millions in revenue but they wont get too involved because its mostly statesmen that benifit from it.

Then look at safety,

How many men actually pay the extra for the liability insurance?

For five years most of the blokes i talked to didn't even know they needed it.

How much money is the industry paying for the extra safety needed to subsidise the serious lack of experienced men on training and silly signs everywhere!

Grrrrrrrrr!

My old man used to say never bite your nose to spite your face and that is exactly what this industry is doing!